From: mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu) Subject: Re: ARMENIA SAYS IT COULD SHOOT DOWN TURKISH PLANES In-Reply-To: henrik@quayle.kpc.com 's message of Tue, 20 Apr 1993 23:24:49 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: vein.cs.rochester.edu Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Rochester <1993Apr20.232449.22318@kpc.com> In article <1993Apr20.232449.22318@kpc.com> henrik@quayle.kpc.com writes: In article , mucit@cs.rochester.edu (Bulent Murtezaoglu) writes: [...] henrik] Country. Turks and Azeris consistantly WANT to drag ARMENIA into the henrik] KARABAKH conflict with Azerbaijan. BM] Gimme a break. CAPITAL letters, or NOT, the above is pure nonsense. It BM] seems to me that short sighted Armenians are escalating the hostilities ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ henrik] Again, Armenians in KARABAKH are SIMPLY defending themselves. What do henrik] want them to do. Lay down their ARMS and let Azeris walk all over them. News reports I've seen say otherwise both location and motives wise. CAPS don't change facts. BM] while hoping that Turkey will stay out. Stop and think for a moment, BM] will you? Armenia doesn't need anyone to drag her into the conflict, it BM] is a part of it. henrik] Armenians KNEW from the begining that TURKS were FULLY engaged henrik] training AZERIS militarily to fight against KARABAKHI-Armenians. So? Should I, at this point break into caps and start talking about DEFENSE etc.? I don't know how 'fully engaged' Turkey is/was though. henrik] The KARABAKHI-ARMENIANS who have lived in their HOMELAND for 3000 henrik] years (CUT OFF FROM ARMENIA and GIVEN TO AZERIS BY STALIN) are the henrik] ones DIRECTLY involved in the CONFLICT. They are defending henrik] themselves against AZERI AGGRESSION. BM] Huh? You didn't expect Azeri's to be friendly to forces fighting with them BM] within their borders? henrik] Well, history is SAD. Remember, those are relocated Azeris into henrik] the Armenian LAND of KARABAKH by the STALIN regime. So I hear. This justifies bloodshed N years after the fact? henrik] At last, I hope that the U.S. insists that Turkey stay out of the henrik] KARABAKH crisis so that the repeat of the CYPRUS invasion WILL NEVER henrik] OCCUR again. BM] You're not playing with a full deck, are you? Where would Turkey invade? henrik] It is not up to me to speculate but I am sure Turkey would have stepped henrik] into Armenia if SHE could. Why would Turkey do that? Do you not realize that this is a local clash that Turkey never wished to see happen? Turkey has other plans for region, like economic revival, co-operation etc. Good stuff in other words, I'd be happy to bicker with Armenians over trade barriers and such on USENET rather than 'who killed whom in what way' which I detest doing and wouldn't do. BM] Are you throwing the Cyprus buzzword around with s.c.g. in the header BM] in hopes that the Greek netters will jump the gun? henrik] Absolutely NOT ! I am merely trying to emphasize that in many henrik] cases, HISTORY repeats itself. Even if one buys into your implicit premise, the sane thing to do would be to try not to provoke Turkey as was done in '74. If there'd been a democratic government instead of a bunch of idiots in Athens at the time, everybody would have stayed home with their families. [I have no wish to go into the Cyprus quarrel, but I suspect what I've said is not only accurate but also palatable to all parties involved] BM] Yes indeed Turkey has the military prowess to intervene, what she wishes BM] she had, however, is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring BM] the parties to the negotiating table. That's hard to do when Armenians BM] are attacking Azeri towns. henrik] So, let me understand in plain WORDS what you are saying; Turkey henrik] wants a PEACEFUL END to this CONFLICT. NOT !! So what do you think we want? War, death and destruction? henrik] I will believe it when I see it. No, if you allow yourself to believe it you just might see it. henrik] Now, as far as attacking, what do you do when you see a GUN pointing henrik]to your HEAD ? Do you sit there and WATCH or DEFEND yoursef(fat chance)? This kind of childish rhetoric doesn't help anthing. henrik] Do you remember what Azeris did to the Armenians in BAKU ? All the henrik] BARBERIAN ACTS especially against MOTHERS and their CHILDREN. I mean henrik] BURNING people ALIVE ! Now, some Azeri will come out and give a description of similar stuff perpetrated by Armenians. One should re-hash stuff like this often to keep the hatred alive, right? BM] Armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the BM]futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that BM] leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that's BM] going to cause incessant skirmishes. henrik] Armenians in KARABAKH want PEACE and their own republic. They are henrik] NOT asking much. They simply want to get back what was TAKEN AWAY henrik] from them and GIVEN to AZERIS by STALIN. Well they obviously aren't getting anywhere with their current methods of asking (not very peaceful I'd say). BM] Think of 10 or 20 years down the line -- both of the newly independent BM] countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe BM] the other out. These people will be neighbors, would it not be better BM] to keep the bad blood between them minimal? henrik] Don't get me WRONG. I also want PEACEFUL solution to the henrik] conflict. But until Azeris realize that, the Armenians in henrik] KARABAKH will defend themselves against aggresion. I don't know if you want a solution or just want to exchange slogans. Peace isn't what's happening right now, furthermore what's happening right now isn't condusive to peace. You can spend days and nights raving about how 'right' the Armenian position is and I'm sure there'll be others who'd be happy to talk to you by arguing the other side. If entrenched positions lead to war, and if people want peace than they should sit down and talk about a compromise. Armenia isn't strong enough to exercise the 'we think we're right, and we have the bombs, so we'll do whatever we want, so there...' style of foreign relations. Yes you can type Stalin in caps, and give one sided atrocity stories etc. but for peace you need to be willing to talk to the other side. You personally can choose not to do that of course, this being just USENET. The people in power shouldn't be so childish. BM] If you belong to the Armenian diaspora, keep in mind that what strikes BM] your fancy on the map is costing the local Armenians dearly in terms of BM] their blood and future. henrik] Again, you are taking different TURNS. Armenia HAS no intension henrik] to GRAB any LAND from Azerbaijan. The Armenians in KARABAKH henrik] are simply defending themselves UNTIL a solution is SET. Azeri's would disagree with you on this, and the maps I've seen support what they'd be saying. It doesn't seem likely that a solution will be reached in this manner. BM] It's easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize BM] craziness to have your feelings about Turks tickled. The Armenians BM] in Armenia and N-K will be there, with the same people you seem to hate BM] as their neighbors, for maybe 3000 years more. The sooner there's peace in BM] the region the better it is for them and everyone else. I'd push for BM] compromise if I were you instead of hitting the caps-lock and spreading BM] inflammatory half-truths. henrik] It is NOT up to me to decide the PEACE initiative. I am absolutely henrik] for it. It didn't look it when I read your posting. It would seem to me that if you can spew mis-information about a boogey-man, you can also talk about how one might avoid the nastiness. Fair? henrik] But, in the meantime, if you do not take care of yourself, henrik] you will be WIPED out. Such as the case in the era of 1915-20 of henrik] The Armenian Massacres. You don't realize I can say the same thing about 'The Turkish Massacres.' Yes, boys and girls, let's always talk about how bad and nasty things were. Let's do that so we're overwhelmed by anger, and let's do that so our kids will also be hateful. Sounds crazy doesn't it? Don't do it then. BM