From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) Subject: Re: 18 Israelis murdered in March Organization: Dept. Of Control, Teknikum, Uppsala Lines: 184 <1993Apr5.125419.8157@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: frej.teknikum.uu.se In-reply-to: hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU's message of Mon, 5 Apr 93 12:54:19 GMT In article <1993Apr5.125419.8157@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes: [After a small refresh Hasan got on the track again.] In article , flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes: |> In article <1993Apr3.182738.17587@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu> hasan@McRCIM.McGill.EDU writes: |> In article , flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes: |> |> I get the impression Hasan realized he goofed and is now |> |> trying to drop the thread. Let him. It might save some |> |> miniscule portion of his sorry face. |> Not really. since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself |> from any "name calling", i started trashing any article that contains |> such abuses without responding to, and sometimes not even reading articles |> written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company! |> |> Ah, but in my followup on the subject (which you, by the way, never bothered |> responding to..) there was no name-calling. Hence the assumption. |> Do you feel more up to it now, so that we might have an answer? |> Or, to refresh your memory, does the human right issue in the area |> apply to Palestinians only? Also, do you claim there is such a thing as |> forfeiting a human right? If that's possible, then explain to the rest of |> us how there can exist any such thing? |> |> Use your logic, and convince us! This is your golden chance! |> Jonas Flygare, well , ok. let's see what Master of Wisdom, Mr. Jonas Flygare, wrote that can be wisdomely responded to : Are you calling names, or giving me a title? If the first, read your paragraph above, if not I accept the title, in order to let you get into the um, well, debate again. Master of Wisdom writes in <1993Mar31.101957@frej.teknikum.uu.se>: |> [hasan] |> |> [flax] |> |> |> [hasan] |> |> |> In case you didNOT know, Palestineans were there for 18 months. |> |> |> and they are coming back |> |> |> when you agree to give Palestineans their HUMAN-RIGHTS. |> |> |> Afterall, human rights areNOT negotiable. |> |> |> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the right to one's life _also_ |> |> |> a 'human right'?? Or does it only apply to palestinians? |> |> No. it is EVERYBODY's right. However, when a killer kills, then he is giving |> |> up -willingly or unwillingly - his life's right to the society. |> |> the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by |> |> depriving the killer off his life's right. |> So then it's all right for Israel to kill the people who kill Israelis? |> The old 'eye for an eye' thinking? Funny, I thought modern legal systems |> were made to counter exactly that. So what do you expect me to tell you to tell you, Master of Wsidom, ^^^ ------------------------------------------------------------------ If you insist on giving me names/titles I did not ask for you could at least spell them correctly. /sigh. when you are intentionally neglecting the MOST important fact that the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is ILLEGITIMATE, and hence ALL their actions, their courts, their laws are illegitimate on the ground of occupied territories. No, I am _not_ neglecting that, I'm merely asking you whether the existance of Israeli citicens in the WB or in Gaza invalidates those individuals right to live, a (as you so eloquently put it) human right. We can get back to the question of which law should be used in the territories later. Also, you have not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights. What do you expect me to tell you, Master of Wisdom, when I did explain my point in the post, that you "responded to". The point is that since Israel is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights to the Occupied Palestineans, which is exactly similar the automatic deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society. If a state can deprive all it's citizens of human rights by its actions, then tell me why _any_ human living today should have any rights at all? |> |> In conjugtion with the above, when a group of people occupies others |> |> territories and rule them by force, then this group would be -willingly or |> |> unwillingly- deprived from some of its rights. |> Such as the right to live? That's nice. The swedish government is a group |> of people that rule me by force. Does that give me the right to kill |> them? Do you consider yourself that you have posed a worthy question here ? Worthy or not, I was just applying your logic to a related problem. Am I to assume you admit it wouldn't hold? |> |> What kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue? |> |> The answer is to be found in a certain system such as International law, |> |> US law, Israeli law ,... |> And now it's very convenient to start using the legal system to prove a |> point.. Excuse me while I throw up. ok, Master of Wisdom is throwing up. You people stay away from the screen while he is doing it ! Oh did you too watch that comedy where they pipe water through the telephone? I'll let you in on a secret... It's not for real.. Take my word for it. |> |> It seems that the US law -represented by US State dept in this case- |> |> is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories. |> |> Anyway, as for Hamas, then obviously they turned to the islamic system. |> And which system do you propose we use to solve the ME problem? The question is NOT which system would solve the ME problem. Why ? because any system can solve it. The laws of minister Sharon says kick Palestineans out of here (all palestine). I asked for which system should be used, that will preserve human rights for all people involved. I assumed that was obvious, but I won't repeat that mistake. Now that I have straightened that out, I'm eagerly awaiting your reply. Joseph Weitz (administrator responsible for Jewish colonization) said it best when writing in his diary in 1940: "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country.... We shall not achieve our goal ^^^ ^^^ of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country. The only solution is a Palestine, at least Western Palestine (west of the Jordan river) without Arabs.... And there is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be left.... Only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out." DAVAR, 29 September, 1967 ("Courtesy" of Marc Afifi) Just a question: If we are to disregard the rather obvious references to getting Israel out of ME one way or the other in both PLO covenant and HAMAS charter (that's the english translations, if you have other information I'd be interested to have you translate it) why should we give any credence to a _private_ paper even older? I'm not going to get into the question if he wrote the above, but it's fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have their share of fanatics. Guess what..? Those are not the people that will make any lasting peace in the region. Ever. It's those who are willing to make a tabula rasa and start over, and willing to give in order to get something back. "We" and "our" either refers to Zionists or Jews (i donot know which). Well, i can give you an answer, you Master of Wisdom, I will NOT suggest the imperialist israeli system for solving the ME problem ! I think that is fair enough . No, that is _not_ an answer, since I asked for a system that could solve the problem. You said any could be used, then you provided a contradiction. Guess where that takes your logic? To never-never land. "The greatest problem of Zionism is Arab children". -Rabbi Shoham. Oh, and by the way, let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are a real bummer, when I try giving your posts any credit. -- -------------------------------------------------------- Jonas Flygare, + Wherever you go, there you are V{ktargatan 32 F:621 + 754 22 Uppsala, Sweden +