From: db7n+@andrew.cmu.edu (D. Andrew Byler)
Subject: Re: Serbian genocide Work of God?
Organization: Freshman, Civil Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 91

Vera Shanti Noyes writes:

>really?  you may be right, but i'd like proof.  as far as i know (and

"We however, shall be innocent of this sin, and will pray with earnest
entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the
numbers of His elect."
    -St. Clement, Bishop of Rome, Letter to the Corinthians, 59.2, (c. 90 AD)

"Ignatius also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia,
which is worthy of all felicitation, blessed as it is with greatness by
the fullness of God the Father, predestined from all eternity for a
glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen in true
suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God..."
    -St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, Letter to the Ephesians, Address,
(c 110 AD)

"We say therefore, that in substance, in concept, in orgin and in
eminece, the ancient and Catholic Church is alone, gathering as it does
into the unity of the one faith which results from the familiar
covenants .... those already chosen, those predestined by God who knew
before the foundation of the world that they would be just."
    -St. Clement, Patriarch and Archbishop of Alexandria, Miscellanies,
7.17.107.3, (c 205 AD)

Of course the doctrine was explained more fully later on by Sts.
Augustine, Aquinas, etc., but the seeds were ther from the beginning.

>this is really confusing to me, especially since i still believe that
>christ jesus died for ALL of us.  preknowledge of obstinacy seems
>like an awfully convoluted way to account for a couple of verses.  but

I think you are reading it wrong.  I say those who are not saved are not
saved on account of their own sins.  It is not because God did not give
them sufficient grace, for He does do so, in His desire that all men
might be saved.  However, as only some are saved - and those who are
saved are saved by the grace of God, "not by works, lest any man should
boast" - the others are damned because of their obstinacy in refusing to
heed the call of God.  They are damned by their own free will and
chosing, a choice forseen by God in His causing them to be not
predestined, but reprobated instead.

>so God uses grace like margarine: he only spreads it where it's needed
>and not where it isn't?  and so there are the saved and the not-saved,
>and nothing in between.  hmmmm.

Certainly God does not distribute grace evenly.  If He did, no one could
have their heart hardened (or rather, harden their heart, thus causing
God to withdraw His grace).  But, you are correct - the world is divided
into those who God knows to be saved, and those God knows to be on the
road to perdition.  THe key is that God knows it and we do not.  Thus,
no one can boast in complete assurance that they are one of the elect
and predestined.  But no one who is a Christian in good standin should
doubt their salvation either (that shows a lack of trust in God).

>be punished after we die.  you're saying what we get after we die has
>a direct bearing on how we live now?  strange....

You must admit it is possible.  Anyway, why would you want something in
the hear and know, when you can recieve 100 fold in heaven?  Better to
lay up your treasure in heaven is what Jesus said.
This is not to condemn the rich, but simply to point out that those who
are rich are frequently very evil or immoral, so God must give them
their blessing know, as they have chosen.  Remeber, Jesus promised
tribulation in this world, and hatred of others because we are
Christians.  He did not promise heaven on earth.  He promised heaven.

>so sin is either punished now or later -- and not both?  what if it's
> sort of half-punished?  are there any grey areas in this doctrine?

Not really.  Unless you do penance here on earth, you will have to do it
in Purgatory, as Paul pointed out (1 Corinthians 3.15).  Those with
poorer works, though still done with good intentions, will only be saved
through fire (the damned will of course go into fire immeadiately, for
whatever good they did was not for God but for self (dead works)).  Of
course, the Church gives indulgences, has Confession, and Annointing of
the Sick to remove sin and the the vestiges of sin, so there is really
little excuse for ending up in Purgatory - it is a last hope for the
somewhat lazy and careless as I said above in referring to Paul.

And no comments were taken as flames.  You are one of the more polite
people I have talked to over the net.

Andy Byler

ps. As for Balkan military adventures, the old saw about that area is
that it produces more history then can be consumed locally: Alexander
the Great, WWI the Ottoman Empire, the Byzantine Empire (by which I
refer to stirfe and foreign adventures of them in general), the Balkans
wars of 1913, the Latin-Greek wars of the 1200's, etc.  Not a good place
to hop into.